John Corcoran 00:00

All right. Today we’re talking about how to stay current in today’s rapidly evolving technological landscape. My guest today is Ghazenfer Mansoor. He’s a technologist who’s got years of experience in various different areas in technology. He keeps his finger on the pulse of all the changes that are happening.

I’ll tell you more about him in a second, so stay tuned.

Intro: 00:21

Welcome to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast, where we feature top entrepreneurs, business leaders, and thought leaders and ask them how they built key relationships to get where they are today. Now let’s get started with the show.

John Corcoran: 00:38

All right. Welcome, everyone. John Corcoran here. I’m the host of this show. And you know, every week we have fascinating smart CEOs, founders, entrepreneurs from all kinds of companies.

And if you check out the archives, we’ve got Netflix, Grubhub, Redfin, Gusto, Kinkos, lots of great episodes. Check those out. And of course, this episode brought to you by Rise25. At Rise25, we help businesses to connect to and give to their dream relationships and partnerships. We do that by helping them to run their podcast.

We are the easy button for any company to launch and run a podcast. And in fact, we’ve even invented a platform called Podcast Copilot, which is being called the Wix or Squarespace of B2B podcasting. So go to our website rise25.com and you can learn all about what we do over there. All right.

My guest today is Ghazenfer Mansoor. He’s the founder and CEO of Technology Rivers, a Virginia-based firm that helps startups and healthcare organizations build compliant, AI-powered software using a rigorous product strategy approach. And he was originally born in Pakistan and relocated to the United States in 1999, largely in fact, on his expertise in Java, which was a really emerging technology at the time. And there’s a great lesson behind that about picking an emerging trend, a new technology, not yesterday’s technology, but the next technology. And so if you can use that in your career, it can be extremely valuable for you.

So I’m really excited to have you here today. And so first of all, we’re going to get into talking about AI and sexy topics and stuff like that. But you said you were born to a poor family in in Pakistan. Talk a little bit about what that upbringing was like growing up in a, you know, a poor family in Pakistan.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 02:27

Yeah. So thanks for having me on this show. Really excited. So yeah, growing up in poverty, obviously you go through many challenges, and but that pushes you in terms of doing certain things. So for example, you don’t have the same money for buying lunch or getting that luxury that the people around you may have it.

So what do you do? You find ways to make money. And I started doing that by doing some tutoring. I was teaching other kids math. So I was good in math in my school.

I was teaching math even at the same level. And then in college when I was doing math and statistics, I was teaching others math and statistics. So those were the other opportunities that I found because of being in a poor environment. So and we all hear that like poverty pushes you towards or when you don’t have stuff, you will find ways to innovate.

John Corcoran: 03:33

Yeah. How did you, you know, find your way then to computers? When, you know, a lot of times poor families don’t have the money to get access to computers.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 03:44

So I was lucky. My father was retired Army. So? So there was a program that was launched by. A company that was offered to the kids of the veterans.

So the Veterans Administration in Pakistan. Called Fauji Foundation. They sponsored. The diploma. So the diploma was from a company in UK. It’s MCPs diploma. So I had to go through the process. I gave the. IQ test and I got elected.

So that one year diploma set the foundation for me. So. Learning the basic things about the basics computer, even accounting and everything. So the one-year diploma, I still feel like that was the foundation that helped me. Up until now.

John Corcoran: 04:34

It’s like here in the States, like my grandfather was an Air Force. In the Air Force. And he did the VA program where he paid for his college. After coming back from World War two. So it’s kind of like that, but for the next generation.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 04:49

So, there was somebody, ex-army person who started this institute and his first client was he sold it to the Fauji Foundation. And so that was the deal. So the. The Fauji Foundation was paying, and it was only available to all. All the kids of a certain age.

So luck was it so? And was there at the right time.

John Corcoran: 05:16

And you discovered that you had a knack for technology. You like technology, you know. Playing with computers and things like that. Experimenting, building things on computers.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 05:26

Yeah. I always love new things. So whatever I’m doing, I feel like I want to learn this. Additional part and computer was I saw in my school, but it was only limited to. One like very few people, nobody knew how to.

The school had computers, but only a couple. Of people could use it. There was no training so I looked at it. But then I got this opportunity. That just opened up the door for me.

John Corcoran: 05:54

Yeah. So. And you actually, I don’t know if this was the same program. You ended up getting your master’s degree and you decided to do your final, final program in Java, which was a new programming language at the time. Talk a little bit about that decision.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 06:10

Right. So right after the diploma I got into, I started a job. And that’s from there. I realized that in order to move up, I need to get a degree because a diploma is still like in those countries, a diploma is still like a degree is really important. So I signed up for a master’s program, and at the end of the master’s program that was 98, we had to do the final project.

Me and some of my friends said, we want to do a project in a different language. Like obviously we had the option of cobalt C plus plus C and different, but a lot of people were doing it. We wanted to do something. So Zhao was upcoming. We started reading about it, said, well, this is going to be a market changer.

So we learn Java. We did the final project in Java, and.

John Corcoran: 07:01

Some of the professors didn’t even know Java.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 07:04

The professors didn’t know like they didn’t care. So our class was very motivated. Like they didn’t even know. So we picked up all those different projects that people didn’t know about. Like for example, a friend of mine, he did a browser, I did an email server, I still remember, I still know the email protocols.

I can open up the terminal and send the email right from the terminal now, because I still remember the protocol, the SMTP and Pop3 and iMap protocols. So that was building that software in 98 using Java. So because there was no other opportunity, I wouldn’t have gotten a job or anything to learn Java. So I learned by myself. And that opened up my opportunities for the US.

John Corcoran: 07:50

Because you found there was a recruiter who was looking to recruit people that were Java developers and you came across this recruiter who had a position with a company in Pittsburgh in the United States.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 08:05

Yeah. So Mastec is an Indian company based in Pittsburgh. Due to talent shortage, they were looking for people everywhere. So they hired a recruiter in Pakistan who was giving them the developers. So I got connected with the recruiter.

He set up an interview for me and I told him, hey, this is only my university project and the POC that I created during my free time when I was on bench at the company I was working at. But because there were not many people available, they were willing to take a chance. So they made an offer. They processed my H1 and three months later they put me on a project with editors on a project for AT&T editors. The project manager interviewed me remotely from Virginia.

After the interview, I was elected and a week later I was here in the US and my first project was in McLean, Virginia.

John Corcoran: 09:06

Was your way you had thought about this for a long time? Had you wanted to come to the United States, or was it just kind of like this opportunity presented itself?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 09:14

It was just the opportunity presented. I mean, I didn’t want to go out like most people would go to the Middle East and some other part of the world. And I was never fascinated about that. But the US and the West, like the UK, were one of the countries that I had met. Like, if I get an opportunity, I’ll go.

It’s not really just because of the money, but the innovation ahead of technology. So I wanted to come to us to compete and work with people that are doing the next generation of things.

John Corcoran: 09:51

And is that what you found when you got to the States, you got to the states in 99. So we’re talking big. This is this is.com boom era right right.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 10:02  

That was right before the.com burst.

John Corcoran: 10:04  

Yeah. Right. Right. And AOL was a huge company in Virginia at the time.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 10:09  

That’s true AOL AOL and there are so many. Yeah. Yes.

John Corcoran: 10:14  

Yeah. And so what were your impressions when you got to the States?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 10:20  

So one of the comments that I always got from one of my mentors was my uncle. So he always told me that you may be the best sports person, best of anything in your country, in your region, but the real competition comes when you go to the Olympics. And that resonated. And he said, when you go to America, that’s where you will have that feeling compared to your country. And that’s exactly what I saw.

Like it’s a huge market. There’s so much stuff happening. It was mind blowing, so everything was new. So I was lucky that I got here and I got to work on those interesting, innovative projects. And that opened the door and the rest is history.

John Corcoran: 11:10  

And you ended up actually through your Java expertise, ended up getting some opportunities working in mobile app development. Correct. And this also is in the early 2000. So it’s, you know, seven years before the introduction of the iPhone. So pretty good timing because it’s mobile is in a huge upswing during this period of time.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 11:33  

In 2000, I got a job with a company called Globalstar in Reston, Virginia. So right after I joined, they got a project with a European telecom, and wanted to build a wireless community. No one had an office in Finland as well. So that’s how they got that project. So I was on that project.

That’s how I started learning mobile. Mobile at that time was WAP, flip, phone, WAP, WML based. But that opened up an opportunity. Novastar saw that opportunity and they created a wireless accelerator group within Novastar. And later on that spun off into a separate startup called FireWire. 

And I was one of the early employees of that. So that’s where we built the mobile platform. So that set the foundation of all the work that we’re doing on a mobile. And this was even pre-iphone. In fact, one of the reasons for the defy was, I would say not successful, was because the devices were not that powerful. 

And obviously iPhone came and Android came, you know, like it’s really not the device company and or the software. You need to have both. So previously you had different device companies and different software companies. And that clash didn’t help companies get to the next. So Apple and Android solve that problem.

John Corcoran: 13:01  

When and when the iPhone was introduced, did you see that as a huge breakthrough at the time, or did it take a while for you to realize that this would change everything?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 13:14  

I knew this was something amazing, but I didn’t expect the extent of it. And now that we see everything is like at that time, obviously just the iPhone and iPod and then gradually everything. So yeah, I didn’t realize at that time how big it would be at that time.

John Corcoran: 13:38  

Yeah, it took a while.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 13:39  

I continue to get more opportunities in the mobile space because of your prior. You know how if you do one thing, there is a higher likelihood that you will get more work in the same space.

John Corcoran: 13:51  

Right, right. And so and you had done kind of side work or projects kind of 1099 type of side projects and stuff like that. Tell us about higher works. This is a software company that you founded. This is around 2011.

Where did that idea come from?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 14:14  

So when I was doing side gigs, I got opportunities to do some consulting projects as I was doing consulting. So I did for the College Board, Washington Gas, Veterans Affairs, different places. I was doing consulting, mostly Java consulting. During those opportunities, sometimes people would call and they’re looking for Java people. I’m not available, but I know people.

And I started putting people on the projects, more of a staffing, staffing, staff augmentation work, and I started looking around the software that would be used to manage all that flow.

John Corcoran: 14:52  

This is probably a Monster time period or people are hiring through things like that.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 14:57  

So yeah, monster dice. Those were the boards. And then for the tracking side, there were tools like Taleo that were acquired by Oracle later on. So yeah, so there were limited tools and then whichever were available, they were either very specific or super expensive. So I thought this is an opportunity to get into that space.

John Corcoran: 15:22  

Got it. Okay. And so you run it for about three years. How was that? What was that experience like?

This is your first real kind of startup I guess.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 15:32  

That was a real startup. And there were some lessons learned out of that. And one of the bigger lessons is to focus on one thing. So even though I had that startup, I was still doing something there and there. And when you wake up every day and that’s not your one focus, there are chances that you would lose some opportunity.

So we built a really great product. We do. We had customers, but we never went on our fundraising side. And that’s where it’s very difficult to run the SaaS businesses without raising money, because SaaS eats a lot of money. So quickly we got into a situation where we’re running out of cash.

John Corcoran: 16:20  

And so looking back on it now, would you have raised money or do you think you should have.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 16:27  

I should have and I would raise the money next time. So it’s not really the money but it’s also the help on strategic partnerships.

John Corcoran: 16:39  

Yeah. How does that lead into Technology Rivers? Which you begin I guess you had done Technology Rivers kind of side projects over the years, but eventually it becomes your full time thing. Around 2015.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 16:54  

All right. So my specialization is building products. I really love building products. So as I was exiting I was thinking what do I do? Do I start another startup or do I take a government contracting job which is very lucrative in this area?

9 to 5. Not much work, good money, which I did like Veterans Affairs, EPA consulting before so I could do that. I didn’t enjoy that. This is the part I enjoy, so I wanted to build a product. My younger one was 15 months old at that time, so I had to. 

I had a hard decision to make. If I’m getting into a startup, that means struggling financially, probably for a few years, limited time, and by the time I’m out, my kids are out of the house, then that would be a lost opportunity. So that was the focus on the family part. That was the decision I made. Okay, I want to do something different. 

 And that’s when I decided, okay, maybe building a product for others. Maybe we don’t own it, but I’ll still be closer to the startup. So the decision between taking a consulting full time versus starting your own. So I decided to build a services business, helping others build startups products. So and especially working in the DC area, I realize that a lot of government contracting the focus is on tnmc keep building, keep building, never launch. 

Startups don’t work like I’ve seen many startups failing like that. So focus on building the right thing the first time. So we decided like, okay, I’m going to build a company that helps those startups. We stay closer to startup. I enjoy the startup part. 

Yes, we don’t own it, but helping them get those hurdles of building the product.

John Corcoran: 18:43  

And you specialize in healthcare now, I think among a couple other areas as well. Did it drill down into a few niches immediately, or did it take a little while for you to decide on that?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 18:58  

Our second customer was a health tech. That’s how we got into it as a healthcare company in Baltimore. So then, you know, like when you do one project.

John Corcoran: 19:11  

Yeah.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 19:12  

Through that referral, then we got one project where the startup off of Hopkins Innovation Center. And from there we learned HIPAA. So we did good work. The CTO referred us to a few other projects. So then we started doing all HIPAA healthcare.

So now I like pretty much our focus on AI and healthcare.

John Corcoran: 19:33  

Yeah. And let’s talk about AI a little bit because you must be like a kid in a candy store for someone who likes building things and who likes new technology and new things. You know, I’m not even anywhere. I’m not a tech, you know, technical person. I’m not a developer, and yet I find myself drawn to all these new tools and testing them and trying them and stuff like that.

What has that been like? How has that affected your business?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 20:01  

So AI has definitely changed almost, I would say every business. So it’s just that maybe from a different angle, software development is one of those businesses. We’re taking it as like for us it’s not the AI is not really impacting, but creating, making us ten X be more productive. And that’s the goal we have set up for everybody in a company. We have a fixed amount allocated.

Everybody can buy any AI tool to do research because we have a goal like everybody should be ten x. So we’re leveraging AI heavily in our business. So we’re using different tools to create different projects. So there were things that were done that would take months and years. Now we’re talking days and hours. 

So we have been leveraging the web coding different tools, whether it’s creating a design, whether it’s creating test cases, whether it’s doing code quality, all of these things are helping how we were doing before. So everything is much faster now.

John Corcoran: 21:12  

Yeah. And is that in both like the prototyping. Is it in the building? Is it every every element of it?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 21:22  

I would say it’s every element. It is more on the building side. But if you look at it like every person who is in a company, they are using it in a different way. So for example, marketing is used in one way. I use a different way developers are using to create code quickly.

Some are used for doing the research. Like for example, we have. I’ll give you a few examples. So for example we created an AI agent. So that’s a requirement agent. 

So let’s say if you’re coming to us and you want to build we’ll give you the agent. The agent will ask you a few questions. You start giving the answers and it will generate a requirement document for you right there with one click. It will give you the whole mockup of the application. So now with one click you can push that into JIRA. 

So through the cloud or through different tools we can create user stories. Obviously you still have to review just like anything. Like if you’re creating a blog, the blog in a first cut would not be giving the ChatGPT is not going to give you everything, but you have to create prompts. You have to give other information so that it is generated based on your specific instruction. So I treat AI. 

I consider ChatGPT or AI as my assistant. Just like I’m assuming I want to build something, I’m giving instructions to ChatGPT or cloud giving specific instructions. Okay, can you add this thing? Can you refer to this thing? Can you do this thing so it keeps optimizing to the level whether it’s I’m doing a proposal or for you anything. 

So the same is the case on the development side. So you keep giving those instructions. So I would say when we work on these there’ll be a difference. So for example our UX person is doing more of initial POCs. Let’s say there’s a requirement and they’ll create a quick mockup of the application much faster than before. 

The developers are generating code. Looking at the code quality test cases, the testers are using the same to create unit tests faster. And then let’s say you have a requirement and you’re creating a user story. With one click you can push those into your JIRA. So all that time is saved because previously somebody would manually go build the JIRA board. 

Everything. Yes, you still have to review it. But now with these tools, we can do things much faster.

John Corcoran: 23:55  

Yeah, it’s pretty amazing right now, all the changes that are happening, and I imagine you’re using more sophisticated tools than I’m using as far as the technological stuff, but are there any tools that you are really excited about right now that you’re you’re you’ve been using recently more heavily than others?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 24:13  

I’m still learning. Obviously, my team is a lot more techy, more knowledgeable on these, and I’m getting that knowledge from my team. Cloud code is the one that we use a lot. Lovable is another one. Replit is my team’s favorite for creating a full end to end product.

So these two, like UX pilot, is another one for creating UX.

John Corcoran: 24:42  

Yeah. It’s crazy. I think there was some stat about like ChatGPT Gbrt was the or open AI. The company was, you know, reached a $1 billion valuation or $100 billion valuation faster than any other company in history or something like that. And then you keep on hearing about things like replit and cursor and lovable and some of these other like tools that are built because of OpenAI.

Now they’re reaching higher valuations even faster than OpenAI did. And it’s just mind boggling that the changes that are happening, you know, in real time, it’s just truly incredible.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 25:21  

Absolutely. No. No doubt like the cursor you mentioned, like I think every developer has a cursor now without a cursor. You can’t imagine building the code.

John Corcoran: 25:32  

Yeah. Yeah. It’s a bit mind-boggling. Yeah. It’s exciting too.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 25:36  

Even.

John Corcoran: 25:38  

Yeah.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 25:38  

And even on the non-technical side, I think there is so much into how you use AI even for non-technical people. So what we’re doing in our company every Wednesday. We have all company, all hands. So that’s where we talk about either somebody showing a demo, we’re sharing what we are learning because different people are learning things from their angle and we’re defining those goals. And everybody has to report for those goals and how they are making, because we want everybody to be at the level.

So that because if you are not doing that, then you, I mean, you will likely get obsolete. I gave examples of toys R us, babies R us and blockbusters of like, hey, you have opportunity, this is our time. You can be in this race and compete versus just sitting back and waiting to work in a traditional way. You still hear some argument from some people in the industry, oh, it’s not production ready. It’s not going to be too soon. 

 It’s already here. Yeah.

John Corcoran: 26:50  

For sure.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 26:50  

Yeah. We are generating production ready code. End to end application in a single day.

John Corcoran: 26:57  

That’s amazing. It’s incredible. This has been really interesting. Oh, one, a couple more questions I want to ask you here. First of all, I know you have kids who?

One graduating from college, one graduating from high school. What do you say to the younger generation right now? You glommed on to Java and that created amazing opportunities for you and your career. What do you say to the generation that’s graduating now? What should they be doing? 

 Should they pick a technology? Should they be technology agnostic? Like, how do you even prepare for the coming disruption that will come from AI?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 27:34  

Yeah. So I mean, the advice that I give to my kids has always been like, hey, whatever you do, do be really good if you want to be a chef. Be the chef Ramsay obviously without screaming. But. and whatever.

Like whether on your computer, like my daughter is. She’s an interior designer. My son, he’s getting into cybersecurity. He’s starting college. So they all have different interests. 

 AI is going to disrupt every industry. So I’m suggesting they start learning more and more AI. Be really good at things you can’t imagine, like, oh, my industry has no impact. No, everything would be and you’d be more you would be a lot more productive because on a day to day basis you are using firm AI anyway. Like whatever the stuff you do on a daily basis, AI is there, so why not? 

 So, the main advice that I give to the new people who are starting their career is to pick something that is unique, that is better. So for example, if you apply for a job and housing, other people are applying and they are coming from your school or similar. You’re not going to get a job. What if you have done a different project? A new project, any new technology? 

 Anything in your career? But you want to be something where when somebody is looking, you are one of the few people, or you are the only one who has done it, then you will get it. You mentioned my Java example. That’s exactly how I was an expert in Java at that time. I just learned Java at the right time when nobody else was doing it. 

 I was one of the few people that was learning Java. Similarly, even when I came to us, I used that approach to get a better job and a higher pay. How would I do it? I would go, I would get a book from O’Reilly. They had a really good technical book. 

 So O’Reilly associates. So I would read, let’s say, a new version of Java before the version launch. The book is there, I read it. And then when I go for an interview, I would tell them the stuff that they know. Like, only you can do it if you have if you know the stuff. 

 So yeah. And I’ve always been open, never lied on a resume, always say this is like studying or experimenting. This thing is very clear. So it’s not about faking anything.

John Corcoran: 30:04  

Yeah.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 30:05  

People love genuine people. And then and they know like, oh, you won’t find these people anyways. You’re the only few people that you’ll find are the ones who may have just practiced or experimented.

John Corcoran: 30:18  

Yeah, yeah.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 30:19  

So the same advice for all the new people or anybody who is struggling in, in their job search, in their career, pick something different, be better in how you can do I or any of these texts to be better than everybody else. What is that? You have to figure that out because that’s specific for every industry.

John Corcoran: 30:42  

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I had a different career path. I worked in government and politics but had similar principles. So like I, I was from Los Angeles.

I was working in the entertainment industry for Dreamworks, which was a really hot company at the time. And then I think that’s what got me a job working at the white House. And then also from there I applied from that to applying to be a speechwriter in the California governor’s office. And because I was different coming from somewhere else that led to that opportunity. And then same thing when I was practicing lawyer, I had this political background that kind of distinguished me, made me different. 

 But at the same time, also when I was a lawyer, I was competing with other lawyers who went to better, you know, law schools than me. And I realized I needed to differentiate myself again. So then I took my legal degree and I went into entrepreneurship, and then all of a sudden I’m different again. And so, like every time I’ve, you know, separated myself from the pack and, and tried to do something different, that’s what has been really helpful for me. I want to wrap up by asking about your book. 

 You got a book. You’ve got a podcast which we’ve been fortunate to help you with. It’s launching and the book is Beyond the Download: How to Build Mobile Apps That People Love, Use, and Share Every Day. Tell us a little bit about them.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 31:58  

Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier about my mobile experience starting from Noble Star. So that gave me opportunities to be on the cutting edge of the mobile. So since I started this business in 2015, we have built close to 60 different mobile apps in different industries. Like, yes, healthcare is prime primarily, but obviously when we’re working, we build for education, for fintech, consumer apps, sports, many different types as well.

So close to 60 different apps. So we have been guiding those customers, helping them on growth strategies. So this book is talking about all the inside, the experiences that we learned and then also the external. We have some case studies in this book including one of our customers. So this book talks about 30 plus different strategies on how to build the app that people use, love and share every day because it’s easy to create an app nowadays, but it’s easy. 

It’s very difficult to retain it on people’s phones.

John Corcoran: 33:01  

Yeah. Where can people go to learn more about you guys? Technology. Come anywhere else?

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 33:10  

So my personal website is ghazenfer.com. And so you can find out about my podcast book and everything and about technology. So you can find a link for Technology Rivers from there as well. Or https://technologyrivers.com/

John Corcoran: 33:26  

Excellent. All right. Thanks so much.

Ghazenfer Mansoor: 33:30  

Thanks, John.

Outro: 33:33  

Thanks for listening to the Smart Business Revolution Podcast. We’ll see you again next time. And be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.