Senior Care Solutions: How AI Is Tackling the Caregiver Burnout Crisis

[00:00:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Hello and welcome to Lessons from the Leap. I’m your host, Ghazenfer Mansoor. On this show, I get to sit down with entrepreneurs, founders, and business leaders to talk about the bold decisions, pivotal moments, and innovative ideas that shaped their journey. This episode is brought to you by Technology Rivers.

[00:00:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: At Technology Rivers, we bring innovation through technology and AI to solve real-world industry problems. If you’d like to learn more about us, head over to technologyrivers.com and tell us more about your project.

[00:00:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Today on Lessons from the Leap, we are joined by Dr. Joseph Vollaro. Joseph, welcome to Lessons from the Leap. Tell us about you, your background, and how you got into this space. So, it’s all yours.

[00:01:00] Joseph Vollaro: Okay, thanks. Thanks for having me on Lessons from the Leap. I’m excited to be here to talk about all these issues.

[00:01:00] Joseph Vollaro: I basically started as a clinical neuropsychologist, so I’ve been a clinical neuropsychologist for twenty-five years. My specialty has been traumatic brain injury and age-related disorders. Over the last five to ten years, we’ve seen a growing need for age-related services.

[00:02:00] Joseph Vollaro: I’ve really had the pleasure of working with a lot of individuals who have different kinds of complex medical issues but are trying to maintain themselves at home. I should mention that I’m CEO of RES Home Care. We’re located on Long Island in New York, in Nassau and Suffolk Counties, and we provide services to individuals who have complex medical needs and age-related disorders and are attempting to stay in the community.

[00:02:00] Joseph Vollaro: I’m also very interested in technology, and as AI evolved and developed, I started reading a bit about it and became much more interested in it, and realized that it might have a role in helping deal with the oncoming issues we’re seeing in the demographic, in the aging population, here in the United States and truly across the world.

[00:03:00] Joseph Vollaro: It’s not just a United States issue. So we decided to go to a conference, where I actually met up with you, but it was a year before, just to see if our thought that AI could be an effective way to help manage individuals with these challenges in the community was right. We got a lot of positive feedback, so we decided to embark on designing a system that was specifically geared towards helping individuals age in place, which is really the model that we’re seeing here in New York State, where we’re located, but I think that’s a model we’re seeing across the United States in general.

[00:03:00] Joseph Vollaro: So we decided to commit to developing an MVP for a beta to see if what we were thinking would actually translate. That’s sort of the quick version of how I ended up here.

[00:03:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So, coming from running a home care service business, which is totally different, and coming into healthcare software, which is obviously very different, building software has its own challenges, especially building in the healthcare space, where the compliance requirements are pretty high.

[00:04:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: As our business, we also work on this, so I can totally relate to that and understand it. So how has your experience been coming from a services business into building software?

[00:04:00] Joseph Vollaro: Well, luckily, I did have some experience in this space, although I’ve gotten an education with our current experience.

[00:04:00] Joseph Vollaro: Years ago, I was part of a group that developed an electronic medical record system, so I had some experience with that end of it. But I will say things have definitely changed since then. That was over ten years ago, so this time around, I think really one of the interesting things we’re starting to learn by doing all of this is really how important it is to have the interface be able to meet the needs of the individuals using it, not necessarily the ideas that we have for the individuals using it.

[00:05:00] Joseph Vollaro: As we’re embarking on the beta, one of the nice things has been that we’re able to field test it on actual individuals who are the target population the system is designed for. But what we found as we started putting people on the system is, wow, what we were thinking would be a good interface is not necessarily a good interface.

[00:05:00] Joseph Vollaro: So really, I think the process of being able to somehow test it on the individuals who are going to use it, I think, is sometimes not done enough in the software space. I feel like that would be a real challenge. It is a challenge to do, by the way, but I think it’s a worthwhile one, because I found from the research I did on these kinds of systems that one of the challenges is sometimes the interface just isn’t good for the user.

[00:06:00] Joseph Vollaro: So we got a big education just with the first few people we put on. I think it’s about bridging the gap between where the patient is and where the developers are, and also the healthcare professionals as well. That’s an additional challenge. So I think those two, the human challenge, is what I’ve started calling it.

[00:06:00] Joseph Vollaro: You could have a fantastic software system, but if the users don’t feel it’s fantastic, then it’s not going to be successful.

[00:06:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Oh, absolutely. I think user experience is the most important part. In my book, Beyond the Download, I also write about building apps that organically blend into the daily routine.

[00:06:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: In healthcare, and I would say in fact in all industries, many times it’s tech people who are building it versus the people who are using it. So you have to see what works for those users. Building something for seniors is different from building something for kids or millennials, because they all behave differently.

[00:07:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: They all react to things differently. So having the right interface makes a huge difference, whether it’s the form, or whether it’s about giving them the right tool. Are they going to be using a phone? Are they going to be using a tablet? Are they going to be working on a computer? All of those things make a difference.

[00:07:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So obviously, in your case, with older care, 70, 80 plus year old users, are there any specific things you’d want to highlight in terms of building an interface for those users? What specific difference did it make between when you originally thought about building it and when you started talking to these people and got their feedback?

[00:07:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And how does that help you build trust and make it a daily habit?

[00:07:00] Joseph Vollaro: Yeah, one simple thing we’re finding, and I think this is where AI has helped in terms of being able to build a system today that maybe ten years ago you couldn’t have built, is having the ability to just have the individual talk, as opposed to having to type, let’s say.

[00:08:00] Joseph Vollaro: That’s huge. You also mentioned before, and I agree with you 100%, that it has to be part of their routine. There can’t be a lot of new learning. So you want it to use skills they already possess or things they’re already used to. The ability to interface with the system verbally is a huge asset.

[00:08:00] Joseph Vollaro: People are used to talking to their kids, to their grandkids. That’s a big way we’re trying to eliminate that friction, and that was certainly one big issue. The other thing we noticed, and you mentioned this, is that Millennials might be different than Gen Z, versus an older population.

[00:09:00] Joseph Vollaro: You can build a system that a younger person is going to go on and explore. They’re going to point and click. They’re going to figure it out if it’s something they want. The system, as we’ve evolved it, is going to be much more directive, so it’s going to offer options.

[00:09:00] Joseph Vollaro: It’s going to guide the person as to what to do, as opposed to letting them spontaneously do it. They can spontaneously do it, but we’re finding they need a little bit more guidance. They get frustrated more easily if it’s not as clear. And I think with the older population, there does have to be some form of tech support.

[00:09:00] Joseph Vollaro: I think initially, older people definitely have more fear, or they’re a little less familiar with certain things, so I feel there has to be a tech support component. What we’re noticing, interestingly enough, is that we have a number of people using the system in their 50s and 60s, since it could be helpful to someone in that range too.

[00:10:00] Joseph Vollaro: That group needs a bit less tech support. They’re more familiar, they’re using iPhones, they’re using computers at work, so they’re a little more independent. But once you get into the 70s, that demographic didn’t have as much exposure to it in their experience, so they need a little more guidance.

[00:10:00] Joseph Vollaro: So I think, as you mentioned, having a personalized interface that’s flexible enough to really adjust to the individual is going to be key, and that’s where I think AI has some potential.

[00:10:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yep. And the hub brings patients, families, and doctors all onto one dashboard, right?

[00:10:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So how do you present that data? Because data is key in a healthcare system. Not having the right data will obviously give you different insights. But when you present that data to non-technical and technical family members, depending on who that person is, while keeping it clinically

[00:11:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: valuable for the doctor as well, how do you balance that? Because everyone needs different data.

[00:11:00] Joseph Vollaro: Yeah, that’s a great question, and we’re actually working on that now. The whole premise of the hub, initially, since I’m a clinician at heart, in neuropsychology, we’re trained to collect and analyze data.

[00:11:00] Joseph Vollaro: So that’s sort of how we do our clinical work. My whole guiding principle on the hub was the right information to the right person at the right time. A caregiver might want different information than a physician or a mental health provider. Everyone wants certain information, and it has to be accessible and meaningful.

[00:12:00] Joseph Vollaro: You used the right word. Just a flood of data isn’t useful to anyone. So one of the things we’re building into the hub, and we’re currently working on this as we speak on the beta, is that the user is going to have their own dashboard. There’ll be a user dashboard, a caregiver dashboard, and also a healthcare professional dashboard.

[00:13:00] Joseph Vollaro: So we’re designing the dashboards, and part of the beta is having individuals from those cohorts use the system, give us feedback, and help shape the dashboard to fit the needs of each cohort, so we can find out exactly what a caregiver wants, which is going to be different from what a user wants, which is going to be different from what a physician wants, and hopefully shape the dashboards so we get them the right information at the right time. We have two ways of delivering information to a professional.

[00:13:00] Joseph Vollaro: One is what we call, and it’s funny, this came from our experience as a home care provider, grab-and-go binders, where for a client, if one of our workers is taking the client to the doctor, it has all of their basic information, all the things we think the doctor’s going to need.

[00:13:00] Joseph Vollaro: So we’re going to have the ability to print out something, a form for the doctor, if the person or family member wants to take that information to the doctor. Or we’re trying to design it so that the doctor, if they’re interested, could sign into the system and have access to the dashboard, plus all of the other information on it.

[00:13:00] Joseph Vollaro: The key there, of course, with healthcare, is that because of HIPAA, all of this is driven by the user. So all of that only applies if the user gives consent. The user is in control of all their data. They would have to allow everything I just said to happen. I’ve heard and read a lot about how people are concerned about the security of their data.

[00:14:00] Joseph Vollaro: So right from the start, we decided to make it a HIPAA-compliant system.

[00:14:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Okay. Well, yeah, that’s the most important part. Without HIPAA, it’s going to be challenging in terms of adoption. So now we’re talking about the data. Obviously, in order to show all the data to different users, you need to collect the data.

[00:14:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: You talked about getting consent from the user, but that data is still coming from different systems, since the hub is the one presenting it. That data is still coming from these senior living and home care agencies. So they need to be using a system so that they’re willing to collect the data and share it in a seamless way, without much friction.

[00:14:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So do you see that as a challenge as you go out and bring in more agencies to use the system? There will be some struggle in terms of getting that data. How are you anticipating that?

[00:15:00] Joseph Vollaro: That’s a great question, and it’s very interesting. This year, at the HIMSS conference where we met, one of the focuses in a lot of the seminars was the fact that it’s very difficult sometimes to get healthcare professionals and caregivers, both of whom are overwhelmed, very busy, and stressed out of their minds, to adopt new systems.

[00:15:00] Joseph Vollaro: Because it’s a lot of work on the front end to shift from the way you’re doing things to doing something different. Using the hub would be a change for a lot of healthcare professionals. So we’re seeing that one of the biggest obstacles to success, meaning adoption of the system, is going to be solving that problem.

[00:16:00] Joseph Vollaro: You have to be able to get people to see that spending the time to transition onto the system is an effective way to deliver care. So I think the main thing we’re trying to get people to understand is that whether it’s a caregiver, meaning let’s say a son or daughter of someone who has an issue, since that may be who’s using it, or a healthcare professional, they both face the same issue.

[00:16:00] Joseph Vollaro: In our field, it’s caregiver burnout. People are overwhelmed, they’re managing their own lives, and they’re trying to help people who have high-level needs. So our hope is that they’ll see a system like this could actually take some of the stress off of them.

[00:17:00] Joseph Vollaro: So for example, with healthcare professionals, I’ll give you an example, this is the kind of stuff I found interesting in our experience. We were talking to an agency that’s very interested in adopting the system. It’s another home care agency, so they send aides into the home who work directly with individuals who, let’s say, have dementia or Alzheimer’s.

[00:17:00] Joseph Vollaro: One of the big obstacles they sometimes face is that they have aides who aren’t exactly fluent in English. So there’s some friction between the caregiver, the actual aide in the home, the patient, and then the patient’s family, because it’s all about communication.

[00:17:00] Joseph Vollaro: That’s how we exchange information, mostly by communicating. So the head of that agency said to me, “Would it be possible to have the interface serve as a translator?” So if the aide could speak to, we have avatars that are part of the interface,

[00:18:00] Joseph Vollaro: the avatar, and then have the avatar translate it into the language of the patient, would that be possible? That wasn’t something I had initially thought would be part of the system, but I thought about it and said yes. I talked to our developers, and they said yes, it would be possible.

[00:18:00] Joseph Vollaro: So we are certainly going to make that part of the system. Part of the beta test is identifying those pain points for professionals and their organizations and trying to modify the system so it incentivizes them to spend the time to use it effectively. So I think it’s really about identifying those pain points, and also proving that the system is effective in getting the person the right information at the right time.

[00:18:00] Joseph Vollaro: And I think that’s going to be our biggest challenge.

[00:18:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah, thanks. So a little bit more on senior living, what’s coming. According to some reports I saw, by 2030, one in six people will be over the age of 60. So where do you see the opportunity or

[00:19:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: challenges for this space? And at the same time, there are some numbers that say by 2030, predictive AI will be embedded into almost every healthcare system. So will this close the care gap, or will it create a divide between companies who understand human psychology and the ones who are just building the tools? I know that’s a combined question.

[00:19:00] Joseph Vollaro: Combined question.

[00:19:00] Joseph Vollaro: Yeah, but it’s a fascinating question. Let’s start with the demographic one, and then maybe we could shift to predictive AI, which I find fascinating. So, one of the things that motivated me to embark on trying to build this system was my work in the home care agency.

[00:19:00] Joseph Vollaro: So again, a lot of what we’re starting to see now are families who don’t qualify for, let’s say, Medicaid, because Medicaid is typically the system that pays for home care, particularly high-need, high-level home care, if someone has high needs. But Medicaid is a system that’s based on assets and income, and some people will never qualify.

[00:20:00] Joseph Vollaro: So what we started seeing in our home care business, I should say, is that if you don’t qualify for Medicaid, the only way to get home care is to pay, paying out of your own funds. That’s the way it’s primarily funded outside of the state agencies. So we were starting to see families that weren’t prepared.

[00:20:00] Joseph Vollaro: When you’re young and have a family, they tell you to save for your kids’ college, save for your retirement, but they don’t tell you to save for long-term care. So we were starting to run into families who, when they saw the cost of what it would take to put an aide, let’s say, in their home with their parent, it was pretty

[00:20:00] Joseph Vollaro: not something they were prepared for. So one of the motivations was to build a system that would be able to reduce the cost of keeping

[00:21:00] Joseph Vollaro: someone independent in their home. That was sort of the idea, that a combination of technology and predictive AI might be useful in doing that.

[00:21:00] Joseph Vollaro: I think when we hear it from the government, when they talk about Social Security and Medicare,

[00:21:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:00] Joseph Vollaro: the government isn’t prepared. I know New York State is trying to design programs to meet this need, that’s where I’m most familiar, and I know the federal government is too.

[00:21:00] Joseph Vollaro: I think it’s a real issue, and I think these systems have the potential to be more cost effective than putting an aide, let’s say, in one-to-one, in-person care. So I see that as being a big place for these kinds of systems to find themselves. Now, you mentioned the crossover with predictive AI.

[00:22:00] Joseph Vollaro: I’ve also learned, both as a clinician and in developing the system, that I don’t believe technology will be a replacement for care. I think it has to support the professionals who provide the care. I also know that in healthcare in general, there’s concern that there won’t be enough healthcare professionals.

[00:22:00] Joseph Vollaro: There’s just not going to be enough professionals, whether it’s home care or primary care physicians, there aren’t enough of them. So if technology, and particularly predictive AI, which I think has some potential if it’s done right, and if I’m understanding it correctly, will allow healthcare professionals to have larger patient loads but still be able to provide good care,

[00:23:00] Joseph Vollaro: if you integrate all the things we’re talking about, then I do think there’s potential there. I don’t know how the competitive side will play out, whether it will create barriers for companies or opportunities. My guess is probably both.

[00:23:00] Joseph Vollaro: But I do think both of those issues are going to coalesce, probably in the next five years.

[00:23:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think my understanding is the same. I think it’s an opportunity as well. I wouldn’t say there are hurdles, but it’s more about adaptation. AI is changing, so you have to change how you work.

[00:23:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: That’s a bigger part. With new innovation, obviously the strategies, everything changes. As part of our work, we’ve built multiple predictive AI applications in the healthcare space, where you have all of a patient’s personal health data and run predictions on all of that. But do you present that as is?

[00:24:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Obviously, that itself is a challenge, because you can’t recommend it directly, and that’s where the doctors come in. But we feel it’s helping physicians as well, in terms of getting a lot more insight, because they have limited time as they’re reviewing a patient’s data. They only have a little context.

[00:24:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: They’re not going to go back 20 years and see that, oh, you had a tumor or something. And that takes a lot more time. So the system will give you a lot more insight, and now you can quickly make some of those decisions and maybe dig further into something. So it means more focused care.

[00:24:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So again, that’s my understanding of how things are moving, and I do see it as a huge opportunity. And as physicians become more willing to adopt these tools, it’s definitely going to make a huge difference.

[00:24:00] Joseph Vollaro: And I do think one of the reasons to be optimistic is that I know one of the biggest challenges has always been interoperability.

[00:24:00] Joseph Vollaro: There are a lot of fantastic tools out there, and if there’s a way to partner and work together, I think that can solve a lot of those problems. It’s funny that you say that. One of the partners we’re working with is a group known as Consolidated Health. So

[00:25:00] Joseph Vollaro: What they do is they have an app that will be able to integrate all of the different electronic medical records a patient has.

[00:25:00] Joseph Vollaro: So, you know how you have different portals for different doctors? They built an app that goes to the different portals and integrates the information from each of those portals into one electronic medical record. So our idea is, on the hub, to partner with them, which they’re very open to.

[00:25:00] Joseph Vollaro: And it’s interesting that you say that, because we can then connect the present data we’re collecting on the hub with their context, with all of their other medical records, use AI to do a lot of that basic work, summarize it, and then present that to the physician

[00:26:00] Joseph Vollaro: as a package. And I think that goes to exactly what you were speaking of. Now that physician can make a better decision, because they have the context, they have the present data, and it’s actually saved them all of that time, because no physician would have the time to do all of that.

[00:26:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: True, true. And I think those EMR proxies, yeah, there are many more coming.

[00:26:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So that’s a great way of connecting with all the different EMR and EHR systems. So while we’re on the topic of tech, I just have one more question for you. Obviously, coming from healthcare and building a tech company, that has its own challenges. So can you talk about some of the challenges you had in building a tech product, and what the lessons learned were?

[00:27:00] Joseph Vollaro: Yes, I can certainly do that. So one of the challenges is, of course, I think, as a healthcare provider, the communication with the development team and trying to bridge that gap. Developers think very differently than healthcare providers. So I think it’s really about trying to find a way to meld the two.

[00:27:00] Joseph Vollaro: I always tell the people I work with here in the office, what we want the system to do and what it can realistically do, sometimes we all have to compromise. It’s not going to be exactly the way we want it. We’re going to have to be flexible, and sometimes the technology has a different solution that could be just as good as the way we wanted it.

[00:28:00] Joseph Vollaro: So I think it’s really about finding that balance. And again, this is why I think AI is fantastic. I think older systems weren’t as flexible. AI-based systems seem to be a lot more flexible. I think the other big challenge we’re facing even today, as I’m speaking to you, is timing.

[00:28:00] Joseph Vollaro: Of course, you want everything done as quickly as possible, and our beta test, which was supposed to start back on March 1st, is sort of up and running in May, but will probably be fully up and running in June. So there are delays, and just making sure the system is operational enough when you start the beta test.

[00:29:00] Joseph Vollaro: So I think all of that, just being patient with all of the different bugs and fixes, and the other big challenge I’m seeing in tech is that it’s expensive. Getting a tech platform off the ground never comes in within budget, so you really have to be ready for a huge upfront investment in order to have a product that’s at least effective enough to be considered viable.

[00:29:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yep, I hear you.

[00:29:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I hear that all the time. Building the product the right way the first time is not an easy thing, and not everybody has been able to achieve that. So yes, it has a big learning curve. So what would you do differently next time if you had to build another product?

[00:29:00] Joseph Vollaro: If I had to build another product, what would I do differently?

[00:29:00] Joseph Vollaro: That’s a great question. I think what I probably would have done was more work on the interface, on the front end. So, like I said earlier in the podcast, we designed it based on how we, and it certainly wasn’t just me, I talked to a lot of different professionals, and thought the interface should be designed for the patient.

[00:29:00] Joseph Vollaro: So that was the original interface, that’s how we designed it. And then we got an education once we started putting people on it. We had to make a lot of

[00:30:00] Joseph Vollaro: adjustments, which is what contributed to the delays and the expense and all the things we just talked about. I think I would have done actual research with the patients who were going to be using it earlier in the process, and I think that would have made the process smoother and less expensive.

[00:30:00] Joseph Vollaro: So I think that’s one big one. I think I would have adjusted my timeframes too. That’s as much a personality thing. I always think, in my head, that things are going to be easier than they are, so I don’t always have a good read on things time-wise.

[00:30:00] Joseph Vollaro: So I’d be more realistic in terms of the timeline.

[00:30:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah, you raise a good point, and it’s an interesting one, in terms of what users want versus what we want to build, and the different approaches to that. I’m personally more in

[00:31:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: favor of, like Steve Jobs says, “Your users don’t know what they want.

[00:31:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: You have to tell them.” And it’s not, I mean, obviously we all talk about customer discovery and all of those things. But at the same time, we’ve noticed, working with so many healthcare physicians on these healthcare products, that many times you’re getting feedback from people who may not be the user experience people.

[00:31:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So sometimes you have to push, or give the direction, this is how you want it. Once you show them, suddenly it’s a totally different outcome, we’ve seen that. But that doesn’t mean you just put something out there. It’s, again, depending on who the person is. And I think the other part you mentioned is all about product management and prioritization.

[00:31:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: How do we get things done in the software world so they get done on time? The problem in the software world is that it keeps

[00:32:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: building and expanding. The problem is that things never get launched many times, because the features keep coming and the wish lists keep increasing. That’s where we need discipline.

[00:32:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Even just like in any part of our lives, if we keep doing everything, if we have 20 things on our plate, we’re not going to focus on anything, and we’re not going to achieve anything. So it’s important to define those priorities, define the scope, and be disciplined about launching, even if that means holding back two important features you really wanted, because in order to launch the product, it’s important that we launch and then gradually enhance it.

[00:32:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Because as you build a product and launch with small features, you’re giving your customers excitement, because now, every two weeks, you’re releasing something. So they start using it, because now they’re not looking at something you built over a year with no changes coming for six months.

[00:33:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So having that discipline makes a huge difference in terms of how visible the product is. And I talk about that a lot in my book as well, because in order to have retention, it’s important that you slowly release things, even if you want all of those features at once. And again, that’s how you drop those nuggets of features in front of customers and excite them.

[00:33:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So if they’re excited, they’ll continue to use it, and they’ll continue to help you build the product, because they’re giving you feedback. So, good insights. Thanks, Joseph, for being on Lessons from the Leap. There were so many great insights about home care, senior care, AI, and predictive AI.

[00:33:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So where can people find you? If somebody’s looking to connect with you, if they want to talk about your RES Home Care or Hub Central, or if anybody wants to join the beta,

[00:34:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: what’s the best way?

[00:34:00] Joseph Vollaro: The best way is to go to the website, thehubcentral.com, and you’ll see there’s a contact information form. Use that, and that’s the quickest, most direct way to get a hold of me.

[00:34:00] Joseph Vollaro: Or if you want to become a beta user, we’re encouraging everyone to do that. We’re very open to feedback. Again, one of the things you just said is that we’re going to be adjusting the system now as we have users on it, based on the feedback. I’m excited to do that. So I think that’s probably the quickest and most direct way to get a hold of me.

[00:34:00] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Okay. Thanks for being on the show. It was great speaking with you. We’ll look forward to sharing this podcast episode with our viewers, and we’ll share all the resources you mentioned in the podcast notes.

[00:34:00] Joseph Vollaro: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:35:00] Narrator: Thank you for tuning in to the Lessons from the Leap podcast. Don’t forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. We’ll catch you next time.