HealthTech Startup Growth: Turning Setbacks Into Success

[00:00:00] Hurricane H: All right, folks, welcome back to the iHealth Channel, the EMBC Network, the BizWorld Channel, iHealth Radio, with your host, Hurricane H. As always, I try to give you the best of the best, and today’s guest is going to bring us some innovation and more. Today’s guest believes that building great technology is an important thing.

[00:00:46] Hurricane H: We’re talking about technology today in a lot of areas, and we see that it starts with building great people, and that’s a great message right there because I’m just a big fan of that. Ghazenfer Mansoor is the founder and CEO of Technology Rivers, an award-winning software development company helping startups and enterprises transform ideas into successful digital products, from mobile apps and AI to healthcare innovation and machine learning.

[00:01:12] Hurricane H: Cool stuff. His work has empowered organizations around the world to scale with purpose beyond technology. Ghazenfer is passionate about leadership, company culture, entrepreneurship, and creative businesses that positively impact both people and communities. He’s also the author of the book Beyond the Download: How to Build Mobile Apps That People Love, Use and Share Every Day.

[00:01:33] Hurricane H: Offering practical strategies for building products that truly connect with users. So today we’ll explore entrepreneurship, innovation, artificial intelligence, mobile apps, success, leadership, and what it really takes to build technology that makes it at last. All right, so welcome to the show, Ghazenfer.

[00:01:50] Hurricane H: How are you, brother?

[00:01:52] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Pretty good. Thanks, Hurricane. Thanks for having me. And just to add a little more clarity, the book is already published, so it’s on Amazon and all the stores.

[00:02:03] Hurricane H: Perfect. Well, we’ve got to talk about the book. Obviously it’s a big piece of your work, and I love anything about books because they combine a lot of the history, a lot of the work you already put out there, and it’s really your core, your juice, your secret sauce.

[00:02:19] Hurricane H: And things that you want to share with the world. So that’s also what we’re going to talk about. But it is pretty cool. I mean, the introduction is never enough. So let’s do what I always do. I’m going to ask you to tell me a little bit about your story. What got you into starting Technology Rivers in the first place?

[00:02:35] Hurricane H: Was that even your first company, or have you done other things in your background, maybe in IT, maybe in healthcare? Let’s bring our audience closer to your story, and where you got into this world of tech.

[00:02:47] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. So I have a tech background.

[00:02:53] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I have a computer science degree, a master’s in computer science. I grew up in Pakistan, moved to the United States in 1999, and I got an opportunity to work on mobile around 2000. That was the early time mobile devices were pretty, I would say, pretty old, like those WAP, flip phones. We got an opportunity to work on that, and that helped move me into that direction, building applications for Palm and working on those mobile startups.

[00:03:27] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So obviously, that set the foundation. As I was working with different companies, working with these startups, seeing a lot of innovation, and as a tech person, I always wanted to build something. So I started doing some consulting, and then started a recruitment software company, which was a SaaS company, and that’s how I got into the building stuff.

[00:03:52] Ghazenfer Mansoor: There was a lot of learning around that time, because we built it with a background of you know how tech people love to build, they focus on building a strong product, not focusing on the customer, and that was a learning the hard way for myself as well. So we built a product that was really good, highly scalable, all of those things.

[00:04:16] Ghazenfer Mansoor: But then when we put it out, we didn’t get any customers. So that was a shock. So we went back to the whiteboard, started learning how products are really built, focused more on product management, looked at the user story, use cases for different users, the recruiters, the managers, the business owners, and all of those.

[00:04:43] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And then we went and relaunched the product, and that’s when we started getting customers. So that was good learning. So when I started this business in 2015, that was with the same goal a lot of people are building products that just keep building, never launch.

[00:05:03] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So we wanted to build the product the right way the first time, because most startup founders do not have a whole lot of money. You cannot be experimenting on your MVPs. So with that motto, we started, and now, in eleven years, we have helped close to eighty-plus customers. We’ve built about one hundred thirty different projects.

[00:05:27] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Half of them are healthcare like fifty-five plus applications, because lately we focus more and more on healthcare, and now we primarily focus on healthcare. And even within that, half of them are HIPAA compliant. So now our focus is helping health tech companies build HIPAA-compliant software products, and also helping those service businesses improve their operations through AI and technology.

[00:05:55] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So the combination of AI, healthcare, and mobile that’s where most people know us for.

[00:06:02] Hurricane H: Wow. Well, there’s quite a bit. And by the way, you just made me smile when you said HIPAA compliant. I love that. I mean, I am in healthcare and I’m in the insurance space, so we breathe HIPAA.

[00:06:13] Hurricane H: That’s like our core, everything. You can’t do anything with CMS and the Department of Health, and anything that has to do with health, if you’re not a HIPAA-compliant entity. And whatever technology you use, the same has to be there. So it’s actually even for us, when we look at software and platforms to use as tech to help us in the membership process or any other department in operations, HIPAA is a big thing.

[00:06:41] Hurricane H: Compliance is a huge thing. And we can talk about that. But before I get into the tech part and the importance of HIPAA and compliance and all the stuff, I just wanted to highlight something that you mentioned, because it is important that, at least from a business perspective, and I think even in personal life, you saw something, you wanted to build something, and that’s great.

[00:07:00] Hurricane H: Your background, you put it to work. But also you’ve experienced what a lot of people do, and sometimes that’s the scary part: everyone out there that wants to start anything, and in particular a business, faces the fear of failure and the fear of just not getting there.

[00:07:13] Hurricane H: You built, but you did what everybody’s going to do as a startup business: you wanted to have everything in place, you put in stuff, and sometimes it might not work. In your case, it didn’t work. But what I love about it is that you go back to the drawing board.

[00:07:33] Hurricane H: You didn’t give up. You didn’t say, “Oh my God, this is not going to work. I’m just going to move on. I’m going to change careers.” You did something important. And that message is important for people watching or listening right now. Whether in personal life, you have to know that you can give up, or you can keep going, and you have to start, and you have to adjust, and you have to also assess whatever you’re doing.

[00:07:54] Hurricane H: That’s a big one. But in the business world, that’s huge. And listen, I’ve started many businesses, some closed, some are going, and so on and so forth — and I’ve learned from every one of them. It didn’t stop me. You just go back to the drawing board, figure out what’s going to work, do some assessment, and start.

[00:08:09] Hurricane H: So that’s a big message to anyone who wants to either start a business, or is in a business, or is struggling in a business right now. I think coming from someone who’s built this for years now, that’s a great success, in what you’ve achieved in terms of clientele, products, and what you have out there already in the marketplace.

[00:08:30] Hurricane H: That’s huge, and I know it’s only the beginning of your story, and I wish you, of course, all the great success. I know that’s going to continue growing. So thank you for that. Now I love the idea about what you said about HIPAA, and innovation in healthcare, but also you talked about the platforms, the use of it.

[00:08:50] Hurricane H: Things like that, that people can use and figure out how it applies to, especially in the healthcare space. Healthcare space is very regulated. I don’t care which part of it you are on the payer side or the provider side, it doesn’t matter. It’s still very regulated by everything, and a lot of agencies have their hands in it, and you’ve got to be good.

[00:09:10] Hurricane H: And of course, technology is a big deal. I mean, we’re in 2026, so obviously maybe some places the technology is not as up there yet. But a lot of companies have invested a lot in technology, such as your services and products, and that’s important. So now let’s talk about the types of modalities or healthcare institutions or healthcare service companies that you work with and what types you work with, currently, with your products.

[00:09:39] Hurricane H: And by the way, before we do that, that’s funny you mentioned some old technology, the flip phones and stuff. That’s like the base. Everybody kind of had to start somewhere, and again, look where we are today. So let’s go to that. Let’s talk about the healthcare components of your work, and how it all integrates with your technology, also with AI, as that is the new wave of the future.

[00:10:05] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Okay. Yeah, so there was a small, brief disconnect, but I think I got to the question. On the healthcare side, we work with health tech companies and physician entrepreneurs were our main customers to start with helping them build HIPAA-compliant products. People have ideas: doctors, therapists, nurses we work with all different types of people.

[00:10:34] Ghazenfer Mansoor: People have ideas, they come to us, they want to take that idea and build it into a product. So many of those are subject matter experts. They know their space, but they don’t know how to build the technology, how to build the product. So we guide them through that process of how to build it. It’s not just about building and making it HIPAA compliant, it’s also about how to build the product.

[00:10:57] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And it’s not about just hiring a developer to code you something, it’s about building something that also works, where you retain the users as well. You bring the users. Because everything, at the end, is a business, so it has to work the right way. Plus, obviously, it has to have the right foundation, the security, and all the other components needed for a secure application.

[00:11:27] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So that’s one part. The second is healthcare service businesses for example, home care, assisted living, autism care, revenue cycle management. All these companies, as they are servicing their customers, need internal tools to optimize their processes, because now, with the technology coming with AI, you need to have…

[00:11:57] Ghazenfer Mansoor: This is to your advantage. This is your edge. You want to have the right technology to optimize your process. You have the bottlenecks in your business. There’s a lot of manual stuff going on. So how do you use technology to optimize those processes to scale your business? This is where we come in, helping them.

[00:12:17] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And again, it’s not about just coding, it’s about helping them with strategy, identifying what needs to be built and the right ways of building it. You don’t want everything to be custom. Sometimes custom is important, sometimes it’s an integration. So finding the right solution, figuring out what the bottlenecks are, what the challenges are, and how we solve that problem.

[00:12:43] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And then the next part of the third piece you asked about AI. AI came into this and just changed everything. Everybody assumes AI is going to solve every problem. It is solving a lot of problems, but it also comes with its own challenges. A lot of people still use AI as a search engine, using ChatGPT and Claude just to ask a question, uploading documents.

[00:13:14] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And that’s where the confidentiality part comes in. You cannot just upload documents into Claude or ChatGPT and then start querying. That data is used by LLMs for training, so you have to be cautious about that. Obviously, keeping those things in mind as you’re building the application with sensitive data.

[00:13:38] Ghazenfer Mansoor: There are different strategies you have to work with to make sure that data is secure. There’s a zero-retention policy that data is not used for training by the LLMs.

[00:13:53] Hurricane H: Oh, well, thank you. And actually, I could relate to the basic part of the discussion here, that especially when you’re working with a client and building whatever service platform for them, with an app or whatsoever, right?

[00:14:10] Hurricane H: It’s because over the years I’ve had my share of being part of some of these buildups, some platforms and tools that we use in the insurance space, right? I can give you an example. Back a long time ago, when Salesforce began, into the market as the leading CRM and all the good stuff, they wanted to go into some verticals, and one of the verticals they obviously started with was our space of managed care.

[00:14:41] Hurricane H: And I can tell you, we were the first company, for example, where I used to be, and we had to help the tech team build all the workflows, all the stuff that had to do with their Salesforce vertical for that industry. And that was a long, long process, because it’s just not, “Hey, listen, we have this platform. Let’s do it.” It takes time. It takes understanding the whole process of the industry, the concept of the company, the integration with the company, how we do it, the cybersecurity stuff, the PHI, all the stuff. A lot of things, a lot of pieces that need to be involved in there.

[00:15:16] Hurricane H: And yeah, it is not easy. And you’re right, there’s a user interface that you have to actually put in place. There’s a lot of testing that goes into doing this. I was not only in the process of doing that with them, and part of the team, but also I was on the testing side, making sure it works for our departments and all this stuff.

[00:15:37] Hurricane H: And yeah, I mean, it was a lot of work. So I do understand that this stuff is not easy, and it requires a lot. And also, especially when you start going into different areas, it’s like learning every time. You talked about doctors, nurses, therapy, home care every one of those, while they’re all related to healthcare, have different things.

[00:15:57] Hurricane H: But I do see that I think you’ve designed so many, your company has so many apps and so many tools for different areas of healthcare. From doctors, AI doctor stuff, to therapy coaching. I don’t know how many apps you have right now, but you do have quite a bit of services and platforms.

[00:16:15] Hurricane H: But I know every one of them requires a lot of due diligence, a lot of understanding, learning, skills from your tech people, from your developers. And you’re right, it’s one thing when a company and I actually, in the early ’90s, I was always in touch with our IT stuff, because of the needs of what we needed to develop for our companies, and being part of those teams that design even internal processes and platforms and systems.

[00:16:43] Hurricane H: And it’s difficult, just to get it from zero to where it needs to be, and all the scenarios that need to go in there. It’s quite a bit. So thank you for sharing that with us. So what are some of the difficulties you’ve experienced in this space of healthcare, from a tech perspective?

[00:17:02] Hurricane H: I mean, besides the stuff that is just working with the entities and trying to get them to respond, and working with them through the process and workflows what are some of the challenges that you think you could share with us today, with the audiences that are either in the space, or they just want to learn something about it, or they’re into healthcare also that they should be expecting, if they want to engage with any company that’s going to build stuff for them, or have a product for them, that there are some limitations, or they at least have some expectations to have.

[00:17:31] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah. So in terms of the challenges, it’s more about, I think, training of the team members, because not everybody’s familiar. We have a global team, so not everybody’s familiar with HIPAA. So we gradually went through that process. Initially, when we did the first project that was one of the startups that came out of Johns Hopkins Innovation Center and that’s how we learned HIPAA.

[00:17:59] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And then gradually we started working on different projects. So certain people were trained, and gradually we started expanding the team. Now that’s part of our process. Anybody who’s hired, they go through that HIPAA checklist and HIPAA training. And so, irrespective of what field they’re in, whether it’s marketing, sales, or QA they all have to go through the HIPAA training.

[00:18:21] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So now it’s part of our process. But initially, there was an adaptation time. And secondly, as you were asking earlier, as you’re working on these different projects I think one of the things in every field, including healthcare, whether it’s HIPAA compliant, is that whatever was working yesterday doesn’t mean it will work today.

[00:18:47] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So yeah, it keeps changing. You keep innovating. A lot of things for example, when it comes to HIPAA, it used to be just regulatory, like the physical. You go, you see the doctor’s office, they have things in the lockers. And then the second part comes in now you have, for example, mobile devices.

[00:19:09] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Obviously those devices are mobile, so you could lose them anywhere you’re at the park, wherever, right? So the rules and regulations for how you implement that software are different. And now AI comes in. Suddenly people started loading all those documents into ChatGPT, Gemini, Groq, and now there are different regulations.

[00:19:33] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I think the regulations are changing at a slower speed than the technology, so you have to make sure many times you may not have a regulation, but you have to make sure the core, the foundation, stays the same. That data needs to be secure, protected, authenticated, and people need to have the right access.

[00:19:53] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So coaching people whether it’s the internal team members, as well as the external partners on what things to take care of. Those are the important parts. With those changes, how do we make sure we stay HIPAA compliant, our team is familiar with the process, and making sure the third-party tools, the companies we’re dealing with, also sign the BAA, or are able to sign, when the time comes.

[00:20:23] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So those are some of the things we have to be cautious about as we’re building those applications. And just to share, on that note we do have a HIPAA checklist that we put together, that shares all the things you have to be looking for when it comes to building an app or a web application.

[00:20:45] Ghazenfer Mansoor: It’s not just about general HIPAA rules, it’s more specific when it comes to building software applications.

[00:20:54] Hurricane H: Well, thank you. And actually, I love what you shared there, because again, being on the client side, for me we’re a healthcare insurance plan, right?

[00:21:07] Hurricane H: So we do have to work with tech, platforms, and developers and things like that. And I’m usually looking at those things. So whatever you said is the stuff that I’d be looking for myself, and some of my colleagues who are making those decisions, whether it’s our COO, or our chief technology officer, and all this stuff.

[00:21:28] Hurricane H: We’d be looking at these things, and you’re right because of the nature of the business, HIPAA can be in anything. And people sometimes don’t understand how extreme that could be. It could be any single device in your office, whatever can be accessed by other people can be a breach or a violation.

[00:21:48] Hurricane H: It can be a problem. So understanding all those things, doing the checklist, as you said, having your staff trained, and even your third-party collaborators being part of that process that’s pretty cool.

[00:22:14] Hurricane H: I think for anyone that’s watching and listening, once we get into some of the products that may be useful to any of you, in your doctor’s office, hospital system, or any of those facilities you may be looking for some tech for there’s some great tech here that Technology Rivers provides and offers. So therefore, you at least get an idea that this is going to be a top-notch place. They’ve already done the due diligence, and these things are working.

[00:22:28] Hurricane H: But I do want to ask a question that probably everybody’s going to ask. I would have asked myself if we were actually working with you to try to adopt the technology. Today, there’s a lot of cybercrime, there’s a lot of hacking. We hear about data breaches and stuff like that, and it can become very crazy.

[00:22:47] Hurricane H: And I know you mentioned security and understanding those things. How can you ensure that you tell our audience, or at least assure some of the viewers that you guys have got this, and what are some of the measures you have in place to kind of prevent any of these things from happening?

[00:23:09] Hurricane H: Obviously, I know there are limitations to what you can do, because also your clients have to do their part in their systems and whatever access they have out there. So it’s a compatible thing, but it has to be a two-way street from you and them. So what are some of the measures you might share, to give assurance to the folks that may be watching or interested in some of the products?

[00:23:21] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah, and that’s a very important question, because that’s also part of how the whole process works, and coaching and guidance for the customers as well.

[00:23:32] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So it’s not always about HIPAA as one big bucket, that all of this needs to be HIPAA. There are different pieces. And there are different companies or roles involved in making sure it works. For example, there’s a development part, where you make sure the application you coded is HIPAA compliant.

[00:23:55] Ghazenfer Mansoor: There are certain things that need to be part of the coding, like encryption at rest, encryption in transit, making sure let’s say you’re using a browser or a mobile app the data caching is handled. If you have cached data and your device is lost, or somebody got access to it, they could access some of that data.

[00:24:16] Ghazenfer Mansoor: The data on the back end there are certain things you can handle at the infrastructure level, like the audit log. But when it comes to building the application, who accesses what data? Let’s say you see a list of patients they only saw the name and date of birth, maybe. And you click on it, then there’s the prescription, the medicine, all the notes and everything.

[00:24:39] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So whoever was looking at it probably didn’t look at all the data. They may only access one or two tabs. It’s easier to say somebody accessed this record, but how granular you go depends on that. Obviously, the more granular you are, the better it is. So building that kind of thing is more specific to the development side.

[00:25:04] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Now, once you build that application, there’s the infrastructure part. There are certain things that we do, and there are certain things that are outside of that, or where we work with a partner. For example, setting up whether it’s the VPCs or the AWS-related things, where your keys go, all of those things like the keychain or the password management system.

[00:25:29] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So all of those things we take care of. But then there are certain things that may be more about the client’s process for example, the documentation. Many of our clients are SOC 2 compliant, and we help them with that. So there’s a process as well, for how the code goes from development to production, how the next release goes, and where all that information is.

[00:25:53] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And similarly, at the infrastructure level your SSL certificates, or how the servers are secured. Some of that is part of our work, and some of it is part of more of a managed-service partner’s role. So our job is to identify those pieces, and figure out which part of the work goes toward the client, which part goes to the group managing all of those servers, versus which part goes to development.

[00:26:33] Hurricane H: Well, thank you. It makes me feel good to know that this part is a big deal, right? So a lot of people are going to press on it, if you were to pitch to a company and stuff. And the reason I ask that is because, first of all, I know that you’re already taking care of that business, but I just wanted to bring that up to our audience, because our audience, or at least the people that I’m close with in the healthcare space myself, especially on LinkedIn this is a show that’s definitely going to hit those areas and those leaders.

[00:27:08] Hurricane H: It’s important to know that we have somebody here who actually has the tech. And I can say, I’ve been looking at the site and some of the applications, whether it’s web apps or mobile apps, and some other things they have. It’s pretty cool stuff from literally appointment setting, to tracking, membership, patient communication, language interaction, or what do you call it?

[00:27:31] Hurricane H: Nursing guides are linguistic tools for them, because sometimes people have to be able to use technology to translate and things like that. So there’s a lot of meds, medicine scanning, and medical training assessment software. So many tools that you’ve built, in what is, I guess, a short period of time.

[00:27:51] Hurricane H: Considering what you stated, that’s a lot, and I admire that, and that’s pretty impressive. So I just wanted to say that. So folks, if you’re in the healthcare space here, listen, ten years ago, these things were not available, and a lot of companies, I think even today, may not know that they have access to these things that are available out there.

[00:28:13] Hurricane H: So I think it’s a great place to start, to look at all the solutions that can be used by the providers, by your partners in the work. For example, in our space, in the insurance space, we work with doctors, pharmacies, nursing homes I mean, you name it, home care agencies.

[00:28:30] Hurricane H: So it’s a big circle, and everybody’s being touched by the same thing. So we’re kind of a big group of entities that kind of work together, mingle, in order to provide care for the patients, and the service, and the pay for those services. So it’s pretty intense.

[00:28:45] Hurricane H: And some of these tools that I’ve mentioned at least when I’m looking at the website, and by the way, the website is actually on the ticker, so anyone who wants to check it out, click on either the first one or the second one, you’ll be able to get an idea of what I’m talking about here.

[00:28:59] Hurricane H: Now let’s go back to that AI concept, because I love what you said. You’re right a lot of people think AI is just ChatGPT information. It’s like going to Google or Bing and getting some information. But it’s really beyond that. Now AI is being used for customer service, too.

[00:29:14] Hurricane H: There’s also chatbots and stuff that have been around for a minute, but now we get into agentic AI, whatever it’s like literally becoming a lot more advanced, in a way. We’re still scratching the surface, but it’s a huge thing.

[00:29:33] Hurricane H: He’s adamant that, in a few years from now, AI will take over almost everything. Which could be scary to some, but there’s some truth to that, because there are so many things happening at the AI level that we may not even see, and it can be used.

[00:29:51] Hurricane H: As a matter of fact, I’m working on a project myself that has to do with AI, that will have some implications in terms of how to solve some of the problems in my industry. So it’s a huge thing.

[00:30:10] Hurricane H: And I think it helps a lot. And I’ve also seen some anti-AI folks who think that we need to train people to destroy AI and not support it. So there’s obviously some fear about AI.

[00:30:27] Hurricane H: But AI is real. It’s here. It’s happening. So what is your real take on the technology and the AI application in healthcare? I think it’s fantastic. I think it’s phenomenal. I think it’s going to do great. And believe it or not, I’ve actually built my own AIs, done as API stuff, out of the platforms, where you program them yourself with your own content, things like that.

[00:30:55] Hurricane H: And it’s pretty amazing what they can do. They can get to a point where they can very much know everything about your work, whatever it is. They’re fed the information and the data, and then they become pretty intelligent about it. So what’s your take on that, and on the future of it within healthcare?

[00:31:16] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I think you said it right. I agree with you. AI is changing a lot, so I am also on that side. Yes, there’s an opposite opinion as well, but that’s like probably closing an eye. So I always remind people about the late ’90s, early 2000s, the time of Blockbuster, Toys “R” Us, Babies “R” Us.

[00:31:42] Ghazenfer Mansoor: If you’re not changing, if you’re not adapting, you’re going to be washed away, and that’s one of the things I tell my team all the time. This is the time AI is changing, and AI is changing everything. We have a chance to either sit idle and wait, or go and compete, and find the opportunity.

[00:32:02] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So this is like the late ’90s internet time, but with AI, which is much bigger than the late ’90s. There are so many opportunities in AI, so this is the time to do something and create differentiators. AI is definitely changing everything, every field, healthcare and how people are using it is a bigger discussion.

[00:32:29] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Many people are still unfamiliar with how AI in fact, I would say everybody is maybe at the level I am using, not at the level I should be using there’s so much more depth to it. There’s a good quote: what got you here won’t get you there. So now you’re here, but how do we use AI the right way, and get to the next level?

[00:32:54] Ghazenfer Mansoor: And on that same topic, one of the other quotes I tell my team is that we’re trying to solve new-world problems with old-world thinking. So unless we change our attitude, our thinking, and our approach, and solve the new-world problem with new-world thinking, we’re going to be struggling.

[00:33:17] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So AI is one of those. The approaches for AI are different. In fact, you start seeing it everywhere in every field, whether you go to doctors or any business, the way people were doing things before versus now, it’s different. So you have to adapt. I think the bigger part I see on the AI side, whether it’s healthcare or other, which I think will stay for quite some time, and it’s somewhat against the agentic part, is the human in the loop.

[00:33:52] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I think right now, and probably for a few years, there’ll be a lot more humans in the loop, and we do need that. You can’t just rely on AI to do everything. Yes, those things are happening, but up to a certain limit there are areas where you want to have the human involved, especially when it comes to sensitive matters.

[00:34:16] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Like in healthcare, that’s the most important one. For example, we’re working on many different applications that involve personal health prediction. You load your blood work, connect your Apple Watch, Garmin, and other devices, functional health data, whatever different data sources you have for your health and you ask the AI for deep analysis.

[00:34:39] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So you can do a lot of predictions, because once you have the data, you can do a lot of detection. You can have fall detection. You can figure out the chances of having cancer or this kind of disease, based on the data that you have.

[00:34:58] Ghazenfer Mansoor: You can get a lot more, deeper insight. But you can’t just give those recommendations to the patient, because if you start trusting it that much, it creates a different kind of problem. So it’s the doctor’s interpretation, based on that data, that helps doctors make those recommendations. I’ve seen those cases myself, something in my personal life or with a family friend.

[00:35:22] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So when you go to the doctor, many times doctors don’t know, or even insurers may not know, something that happened maybe fifteen years ago, and that could change things, right? How much data do they review? They usually review only the last few parts. But now with AI, you have a lot more insight being given, and some of those things are highlighted in front of the doctor.

[00:35:44] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So suddenly now you have a lot better results. Yeah, the human in the loop is definitely going to be the most important part. But I think when it comes to which way things are going, definitely agentic is the way, and we’ll have a lot more of it, because AI will get better with time as well. There’s a lot of hallucination now.

[00:36:07] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Gradually, those things are improving. So you will start trusting AI more and more. I would say again if you were in the late ’90s or early 2000s, people would not even go online to shop. So it took a while to build that confidence. The same is the case with AI. It’s still early. A lot of people are not confident.

[00:36:31] Ghazenfer Mansoor: They’re not relying on EVs for driving, because some people would not just drive, they don’t trust it. Doesn’t matter what the numbers say, right? So it takes a while. It’s human nature that it will take time to adapt to new technology.

[00:36:47] Hurricane H: You know, it’s funny, because you talked about adaptation, and you’re right it’s hard to transition to something new.

[00:36:53] Hurricane H: But listen, it’s funny, I’ve seen those EVs. I’ve seen self-driving vehicles next to me, and they look pretty cool. The guy’s in the back looking at his computer and the car’s just doing its thing. We have that in other places too, believe it or not, if you’ve taken a plane, the majority of the flight is actually on cruise control, and the computer’s doing all the work.

[00:37:12] Hurricane H: The pilots are just sitting there. If you’re taking a cruise ship, there’s also the same thing: they can go on cruise control and just keep going. So a lot of this stuff is just the trust factor, as you said. And you’re right early on, technologies have not been adopted equally.

[00:37:28] Hurricane H: It takes time for people to build that trust. But I think one of the problems with AI not with AI itself, but with the perception of AI is the Skynet, for example, in “The Terminator” movie, right? It’s the danger it can cause because it can become self-aware and take over the world, and it’s so intelligent, and so on.

[00:37:43] Hurricane H: There are so many movies about this. As a matter of fact, I was just watching a movie called “The Creator,” on Netflix. It’s about AI and how AI progresses in the future, and it kind of becomes similar to the plot of “The Terminator,” but with a twist. But those are the extreme cases, obviously.

[00:38:02] Hurricane H: And the other thing is, I love what you said the human factor will still remain there, because AI learns from what’s already available in this world, and that’s available through the human factor. We’re producing intelligence, we’re producing studies, research, and stuff.

[00:38:16] Hurricane H: It gets documented, and AI just takes that from the global availability of data, and works on it. Now, of course, is it going to create its own stuff? Maybe at a certain point it becomes so advanced that it can do its own research with the proper tools.

[00:38:31] Hurricane H: With robotics and stuff, integrated into that, that could be a whole different world. But again, can we see that happening in the future? Yes. You work with AI agents, agentic AI which basically means they can literally… Can I see them replacing some human factors? Yes. I can see, for example, AI becoming responsible for responding to calls, doing other things easily. I don’t see it as a difficult task, if it’s built correctly. Can it do other tasks? As a matter of fact, I asked AI myself if it can teach some things, including medicine, and it can.

[00:39:07] Hurricane H: Technically, you take all the books in the world that have ever been written, and all the studies and research, and give it to an AI that will actually understand everything. Now, will we take that for granted, and just take it because it’s AI given to us? Maybe not, because we do need that personal touch, as you said.

[00:39:24] Hurricane H: We’re still not at the level where we can just trust it 100%, but it can happen. We have to be optimistic. We also have to be realistic about the reality that we’re in. This is real, it’s happening, it’s not going anywhere, and we’ve got to get with the program.

[00:39:43] Hurricane H: And I think the people who get with the program early will just be ahead of the game, that’s all, and everybody else will have to catch up. So now I think it’s a clear message that AI is going to happen. You’ve developed that already. You’re working, you actually have some products that are AI-based and AI agentic solutions.

[00:40:07] Hurricane H: But now let’s talk about your book. It’s actually out already Beyond the Download. Why do so many apps get downloaded but not really become part of someone’s daily life?

[00:40:11] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Absolutely. So the book is Beyond the Download: How to Build Mobile Apps that People Love, Use, and Share Every Day. This is written based on my experience in the mobile space for over twenty years, building mobile apps, helping companies build and grow mobile apps.

[00:40:26] Ghazenfer Mansoor: We all have thousands of apps on our phones, and we don’t even know, including myself, how many. I cannot even count. You keep scrolling. There are so many we download for something, but how many of them are we using more frequently? Other than social, yes, very few. Some are more on a need basis.

[00:40:45] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Some we just keep forgetting. So how do we make sure we build apps that people use? Because there’s a business behind it like any business, you don’t want to service your customer and then have them forget you. No, that’s not always a trend. The business grows if your customers keep coming back, they’re referring others, they’re talking about it.

[00:41:10] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So there are different strategies you can use in the mobile app. The mobile space is different from the web, or in general, other retail businesses, obviously. There are certain things you can do differently, and better than before. And now with AI, even more different ways of increasing that retention.

[00:41:32] Ghazenfer Mansoor: But the goal is to create retention, so that people are not only coming to the app, but they’re also loving it, and sharing it. So there are different strategies that I share. There are thirty-plus different chapters that talk about different strategies. And it’s not one-size-fits-all, because every business is different, every product is different.

[00:41:55] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Let’s say if you’re building something like a food delivery app like DoorDash, obviously it’s going to be a different need versus, let’s say, Uber or Lyft versus something totally different, like maybe a book reading app, or maybe something helping kids with autism, or any of those things.

[00:42:17] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So every app has its own function, so you have to figure out who the audience is, and what strategy would work. In some cases it may be a referral. In other cases it may be a push notification. In many cases, it would be a combination of five different things. So you have to still figure out which one would work for you.

[00:42:43] Ghazenfer Mansoor: You have to experiment with all of those as well. But this book gives you insights into what worked for others, how each of these strategies work, and what to look for in each of those different strategies.

[00:42:59] Hurricane H: So what separates an app that people simply use once or try, versus an app that they really love and recommend? There’s got to be a secret feature that makes that happen besides the utilization of it itself. Obviously, like you said, some apps we would use because let’s talk about Instagram, right? Everybody’s on Instagram daily.

[00:43:26] Hurricane H: Facebook, Snapchat those are the social ones, as you mentioned. But a lot of the utility ones that you can use for other things are not used daily. But what separates that simple one from something you really love and use? I recommend it. What’s the hype about it?

[00:43:46] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So, yeah, as you said I love this app, let’s use this the problem is, what problem is it solving? Let’s say if I’m a sports fan, and it’s giving me information about some of my favorite sports, then I would wake up every day and look for it.

[00:44:03] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Or if it’s a news app, do I just go to Google News, or does this app give me options? There are so many apps for stocks as well. Most people do stock trading, at least in the US, but which one do you go to? What’s the difference between one versus the other? They’re all giving you the basic information: the trades, the trade opportunity, the current price, and everything.

[00:44:31] Ghazenfer Mansoor: But are they giving you something different, that makes you want to go to that one versus the ten others available? That’s where the differentiator comes in. And there’s no one solution for one.

[00:44:49] Ghazenfer Mansoor: As we talk about it, it has to be a remarkable app. But what is remarkable? In some cases, user experience is important. In another case, it’s a combination I would say user experience and design are critical in every single app. But that’s more of a common baseline alone, that would still not bring you back.

[00:45:17] Ghazenfer Mansoor: But when you have an amazing experience, and a user-friendly, slick app, even Google and Apple may feature your app. If you look at all the top apps by Apple, they’re really nice-looking apps. Yes, they’re solving a problem. They rate certain apps, they move up certain apps in each different category.

[00:45:45] Ghazenfer Mansoor: From utility to productivity, to news-related. You want to get picked up in one of those, and you have to follow certain processes, or certain ways of building the app. You cannot just build a generic app and expect Apple to pick it up, if you’re not using their native design recommendations.

[00:46:10] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So they also look at all those stats, and based on those, they recommend. So it’s important, because as your app is being used, and more people are using it, they also get to see those numbers.

[00:46:10] Hurricane H: Well, thank you. And actually, I can just make this statement, based on my own experience. To me, an app needs to be practical. Obviously, it has to have an end use for me, meaning I’m going to get something out of it for whatever work that I do.

[00:46:25] Hurricane H: But I’ve actually used apps that I didn’t like, because they were too convoluted, too hard to navigate. They don’t do the stuff, you can’t figure them out, or they’re just not really as user-friendly as they should be. And I’ve used other ones that are so easy to operate with you can just literally have a very easy flow to do whatever it’s designed to do, and that makes a big difference.

[00:46:48] Hurricane H: You’re right, aesthetically too that can make a difference as well, in terms of the look and feel of it. All these things can make a big difference in how we see things. That’s the same thing for websites. I know you also have some web applications as well, and you’re going to some of these sites.

[00:47:06] Hurricane H: It’s just you can’t operate with them, or they don’t do exactly what they should. That’s a problem I’ve had, for example, with platforms myself, because they’re like generic ones, as you said the keyword “generic” and they try to make that fit for everything. And then it’s not really appropriate, because it’s so stiff, and it doesn’t have the ability to do other things that are very unique for your own niche or your own workflow.

[00:47:31] Hurricane H: So it makes it difficult. And when you try to just use it and adapt it, it doesn’t work, and it becomes a problem. And that’s just my personal opinion, based on my experience with apps and some of these platforms. But yeah, thank you. Obviously, folks, you know what you’re looking for.

[00:47:47] Hurricane H: But you’re right, not all apps are made equal. And I think you already know that. You’re working with that concept yourself as a company, so you’re taking that into consideration. I’ve seen some of the work, and some of your apps, they’re pretty cool. They’re very user-friendly, as far as I’ve seen.

[00:48:04] Hurricane H: So again, that shows that you’ve done your due diligence, and you understand how this works well enough to produce something, especially with the customer base or the client base you have. Doctors, nurses are so busy, and they need something accurate, that’s literally going to do the job efficiently and rapidly, and render the right solutions for them or the right service.

[00:48:33] Hurricane H: All right. So now the book is available. People can purchase it I guess on Amazon and/or wherever the books are. Or is there audio too?

[00:48:44] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah. So it’s available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and a few other places. If you go to ghazenfer.com, you’ll find the book link, or beyondthedownload.com. There are links to Amazon available.

[00:48:59] Hurricane H: No Audible for the book, just

[00:49:01] Ghazenfer Mansoor: No Audible at this time.

[00:49:03] Hurricane H: Okay, perfect.

[00:49:04] Ghazenfer Mansoor: But the Kindle version is available.

[00:49:07] Hurricane H: So question for you can it be perceived as a guide? Literally, an actual practical guide for app selection and app understanding, for customers, and even business people, or even tech people?

[00:49:24] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yes, it is both. I think it’s not a technical book, but at the same time, it’s more targeted toward app owners, business people, entrepreneurs who are looking to build an app. But it’s also for product people and developers, because they’re the ones recommending, working with the founders, helping them figure out what to build in the app.

[00:49:49] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So yeah, it’s kind of a guide. It gives recommendations on how to implement all of these different features in your app, to make it more user-friendly, and make the retention higher, to keep bringing users back. It also includes some case studies of how other apps have done it.

[00:50:14] Hurricane H: No, but thank you. To me, that sounds like a great tool for everyone to kind of understand the world of apps, whether you’re looking to purchase an app, or get a service from a provider that has an app it will help you understand the practicalities, the do’s and don’ts, what to look for, what you shouldn’t.

[00:50:32] Hurricane H: And I think that also gives, to your point, the developers a way to understand how the market plays, and how people can see these things, because you have that part of the research already built in there. So I would call it a guide personally, but a reference book, if you want to call it that.

[00:50:47] Hurricane H: But obviously, you put something together that is unique. And to be honest with you, I haven’t heard of books like this from any of my guests. We’ve had so many types of books. This is the first time we’re talking about something like this. I’ve had books for mental health that are practical, for psychiatrists, for example.

[00:51:07] Hurricane H: We did a show with our co-host in one of the primary mental health shows here. And they did him and his wife, they’re both psychiatrists they did a great book that’s more for academia, for psychiatrists, but it’s also available for people to read, and work with, as non-doctors, if you want to call it that.

[00:51:29] Hurricane H: But that’s one example. Really, on the tech side, this is probably one of the first ones I can recall in a discussion. So it’s pretty interesting. So now let me ask you this question. If someone is watching right now, and they’re looking at solutions in their healthcare business, what should they be looking for, in terms of your work?

[00:51:55] Hurricane H: And how can they work with you, in terms of the solutions you have that you can share with them? I mentioned a few, but just enlighten the potential clients here, as to what solutions you have that they can benefit from today.

[00:52:10] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah. So, obviously there’s a lot of stuff on our website about the services, but the solutions are more. We have a lot of reusable code bases for building, let’s say, HIPAA-compliant applications really quickly. And obviously, we’ve done so many, we know what it takes to build those.

[00:52:23] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So not only can we guide the customers, but we can also build. So one of the solutions we have is HIPAA Compliance as a Service, which is like a Stripe for PHI data.

[00:52:44] Ghazenfer Mansoor: You know how, within Stripe, PCI data stays on Stripe; you can build the application that uses it, but the credit card data stays on Stripe. So in our case, the PHI data can stay on our servers, and we can still build a HIPAA-compliant application. The second part is most applications, most businesses, need some kind of…

[00:53:07] Ghazenfer Mansoor: They have sensitive data, call it a knowledge base. So for healthcare organizations remember we’re talking about hallucinations. You have big files, big data, and if you just search on ChatGPT and Claude, you’re not going to get the right results. So we have a product, built as a foundation, basically more like a chatbot.

[00:53:30] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So it connects with your backend knowledge base, with the permissions and everything. Different people will have access to different sets of data, and you can use it as a chatbot. But there are solutions that could be built on top of those. This is one of the solutions, again.

[00:53:47] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I would say nowadays, the majority of applications are coming up with that specific need, because there’s hardly going to be any organization that has no existing data. So you have data that needs to be trained, and you want to build an application on top, leveraging that data.

[00:54:06] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So this is where that solution comes in, where we can build something an application on top of that knowledge base foundation that we’ve already built.

[00:54:16] Hurricane H: So essentially, you already have pre-built solutions, but you can always rebuild something, or build something with an actual client, based on their need, using some of the already existing tools you have.

[00:54:32] Hurricane H: Does that make sense? Am I getting it right?

[00:54:34] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Exactly. Because every business has a very specific, unique need. So we’re not just selling the product, we have a solution where you can build the application, leveraging those solutions.

[00:54:49] Hurricane H: Okay. That’s awesome. Because again, the reason I ask that question is that some people are like, “Well, maybe I have a problem, and I need a fix for it, but I don’t know where to go.”

[00:55:01] Hurricane H: I think you can be a good hub, where someone can come to you and say, “Listen, this is our dilemma. We need this kind of app. We need something for our members, or for our patients, or for our employees. What can we do?” And you certainly can look at that scope and see what you already have in existence, and what you can do to build with them.

[00:55:19] Hurricane H: And I’m getting that this is your way, and you’re open to it, so that’s awesome. If you’re watching or listening, and you do have some sort of a healthcare practice with a dilemma and a solution you’re looking for, maybe we have someone who can assist with that today, at Technology Rivers.

[00:55:37] Hurricane H: So yeah, that’s pretty cool, man. I enjoy this stuff, and people don’t realize how much technology is being used in healthcare, in all aspects of day-to-day life. As a matter of fact, we’re just more advanced today than ever. You go to hospitals, everything is apps and carts. They pull these carts, they have so many apps on them. They have so much data going on, connecting to everything from the lab, to pharmacy, to radiology, to providers outside of the hospital. It’s just amazing. The medical record stuff is different. We’ve come a long way from those old closets and cabinets, whatever they called those storage facilities, to now everything being digital.

[00:56:19] Hurricane H: It’s crazy. It’s called advancement in this world, and technology makes a big difference in how we do stuff. And by the way, that’s in every industry. I think you focus more on the healthcare world, and that in itself, especially in the States, is very advanced and complicated.

[00:56:36] Hurricane H: So the more solutions, the better. We can just get things done. So folks, if you’re out there and you have a need, do check out the website. It’s right on the ticker, but it’ll also be on the description of the show. You can connect with Technology Rivers, and anything that you need from there, you can just work with them and see how it could benefit you.

[00:56:57] Hurricane H: So any advice to our audiences, whether they’re consumers or clients, in general, in this healthcare space?

[00:57:09] Ghazenfer Mansoor: I think every solution, every challenge is different. Don’t just rely on Google search to find the solution for everything. Talk to an expert who knows how to build it.

[00:57:24] Ghazenfer Mansoor: At least, you want to learn how the whole process works. And in our process, as we work with a customer, the most important part we teach our team is to understand the customer’s business. Because once you know that, it’s easier to build for them. The same is the case on the other side.

[00:57:43] Ghazenfer Mansoor: If you know how the process works, whether it’s a web, mobile, or any product, any portal you’re building will be different, because it’s not just about hiring a developer to write code.

[00:57:57] Hurricane H: Thank you, Ghazenfer, this has been real, man. This has been an eye-opener, and really, it opens up great stuff for me personally, because I’ve seen what you already have built.

[01:01:00] Hurricane H: And I think everyone who’s watching or listening should just click on that website, and you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about, especially if you’re in the healthcare space. And by the way, this quick question is obviously available in the US, but I think these apps can be used worldwide.

[01:01:14] Hurricane H: Am I getting that right? I don’t see a reason why it can be limited to anything. Is it?

[01:01:18] Ghazenfer Mansoor: Yeah, absolutely, anywhere. There are no limitations. Yes, definitely.

[01:01:23] Hurricane H: Yeah,

[01:01:24] Ghazenfer Mansoor: love that about that. Most of our customers are US-based, but there are a few that are non-US-based as well.

[01:01:30] Hurricane H: Well, thank you. The reason I’m asking that question is, these solutions in some parts of the world may not have similar problems, or they’re not even up to where the US is, in terms of where they are in technology. And these solutions are already there, available, and could be adapted.

[01:01:46] Hurricane H: And by the way, I just want to ask one more question. I know sometimes the cost of services depends on how it works. Is it by user type, or are there different modalities? Is it membership-based solutions? How does that work, in terms of some modalities, just to share with people so they have an idea?

[01:02:03] Hurricane H: How does that work?

[01:02:08] Ghazenfer Mansoor: No, so our solutions are all custom-based on a specific customer. So all the work we do is owned by the customer. We give them the full rights, full ownership of the code and everything.

[01:02:20] Ghazenfer Mansoor: So yes, we charge a one-time fee, and it depends sometimes it may be more recurring, as you’re building and enhancing the product. Obviously we’re supporting that as well. But you pay, and you own everything.

[01:02:39] Hurricane H: Perfect. Now, the reason I’m asking is, in our space, we do contracts where it’s by user a PMPM, per member per month fee, that goes for the server for every user. So those are some of the things we have.

[01:02:45] Hurricane H: All right. So well, listen, I want to thank you for being with us. This has been real fun. We had a great time, and folks, that’s it.

[01:03:03] Hurricane H: This is the end of our show. We’ll be talking to you a new day, a new show, a new topic. Bye for now.